X-20/E6 - A new way of d20 (Core Classs Added, Feedback Needed).

[LordVreeg]

Xathan Back Again

LordVreeg

Xathan

To make sure I understand: Every armor provides the same bonus to AC (difficulty to hit) to every class, but how much damage it mitigate is class/skill dependent?

Close.  Every armor provides the same bonus to AC and the same POTENTIAL DR.  The ability to use DR is class/level dependent.  Like Hit points, or spells for a caster.  But it cannot exceed the 'Potential DR' of the armor worn. Fighters gain one more 'Use DR' at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 etc, Clerics and thieves at levels 3, 6, 9, magic users at levels 4, 8, etc.

remember, this means that if our fighter is not wearing any armor, he has no DR, no matter how good his 'Use DR' ability is.  It needs both. 

Oh, okay, I get it! It seems like a cool way of doing it - the problem is, my goal here is to completely remove difficulty to hit from armor and make armor totally about damage mitigation, so this system just doesn't fit my design purposes. I do like the idea of "use DR", though - I'm getting some ideas on how to implement it best in the system I'm working out.

Tunnells and trolls and a few others did that that I have seen. 
Also, I have used a few systems that do it, and you will find you need to change weapon damage ranges as well.

What do you see as the DR for a Level 10 fighter in full plate armor? 

[Xathan]

LordVreeg

Xathan Back Again

LordVreeg

Xathan

To make sure I understand: Every armor provides the same bonus to AC (difficulty to hit) to every class, but how much damage it mitigate is class/skill dependent?

Close.  Every armor provides the same bonus to AC and the same POTENTIAL DR.  The ability to use DR is class/level dependent.  Like Hit points, or spells for a caster.  But it cannot exceed the 'Potential DR' of the armor worn. Fighters gain one more 'Use DR' at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 etc, Clerics and thieves at levels 3, 6, 9, magic users at levels 4, 8, etc.

remember, this means that if our fighter is not wearing any armor, he has no DR, no matter how good his 'Use DR' ability is.  It needs both. 

Oh, okay, I get it! It seems like a cool way of doing it - the problem is, my goal here is to completely remove difficulty to hit from armor and make armor totally about damage mitigation, so this system just doesn't fit my design purposes. I do like the idea of "use DR", though - I'm getting some ideas on how to implement it best in the system I'm working out.

Tunnells and trolls and a few others did that that I have seen. 
Also, I have used a few systems that do it, and you will find you need to change weapon damage ranges as well.

What do you see as the DR for a Level 10 fighter in full plate armor? 

Well, I'm going to be using the Variant Rules outlined here to cover Armor as DR, at least for initial playtesting. As far as how much DR a level X [class] will have on a given basis, the exact numerical values of that are hard to figure in advance - I'll do adjusting after some playtesting.

[LordVreeg]

that system is very similar to what I used when I first started tweaking ac in D&D some 30 years ago.  Literally. 
Ac became avoid and protect. I'll be interested wher you go.

[Xathan]

Thanks - I'm doing some class design right now, but haven't come up with anything I'm happy with enough to post...and I haven't gotten past the Fighter. Maybe I will go to the 10 level 6 hit dice method, because making 6 levels feel like a full class is HARD.

Then again, I'm rather proud of the level 6 capstone ability I have for the class, so maybe I'll say screw it and post it later tonight.

[Xathan]

Half-Elf Fighter 6
Str 14
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 12

Speed 40ft

Attack +1 Shocking Rapier (18-20/X2) +15 1d6+4+1d6 Lightning
Full Attack +1 Shocking Rapier (18-20/x2) +15/+12/+9 1d6+4+1d6 Lightning

HP: 49

Defense: 21 (23 if move 10 ft)

DR: 5/Adamantine

Saves:
Fort +6
Ref +8
Will +4 (+6 vs Fear)

Skills:
Climb 10 +15
Bluff 10 +16
Perception 10 +12

Feats:
Weapon Finesse
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Weapon Specialization (Rapier)
Improved Feint
Skill Focus (Bluff)

Racial Features
Low Light Vision
Immune to Sleep, +2 vs. Ecnhantment

Class Features
Bravery (+2 to will vs. fear)
Armor Training
Weapon Training (Swords)
Style Mastery: Swashbuckler (+10 movement speed, +2 Defense if move 10 feet, +2 to attack rolls with light weapon)

Equipment:
+1 Shocking Rapier
+2 Chain Shirt

Half-Orc Fighter 6
STR: 18
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 13
WIS: 10
CHA: 10

Speed 20ft

Attack: +1 Flaming Double Axe (X2) +13 1d6+6+1d6 Fire
Full Attack: +1 Flaming Double Axe (X2) +11/+11/+8/+5 1d6+6+1d6 Fire

HP: 49

Defense: 20

DR: 6/Adamantine (8/Adamantine if Charging)

Saves:
Fort: +6
Ref: +5
Will: +4 (+6 vs Fear)

Skills:
Climb 10 +17
Intimidate 10 +15
Perception 10 +10

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting,
Weapon Focus (Double Axe),
Weapon Specialization (Double Axe)
Two Weapon Defense
Mobility
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes

Racial Qualities:
Orc Ferocity: Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for one more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
Darkvision 60 Ft

Class Features
Bravery (+2 to will vs. fear)
Armor Training
Weapon Training (Axes)
Style Mastery: Shock Trooper (No Armored Speed Penalty When Charging, +2 to DR if charged, Spring Attack As Bonus Feat)

Equipment:
+1/+1 Flaming Double Axe
+1 Scale Mail

Human Fighter 6
Str 18
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 10

Speed 20ft

Attack +1 Acidic Large Greatsword (X2) +12 3d6+6+1d6 Acid
Full Attack +1 Acidic Large Greatswordr (x2) +12/+9/+6 3d6+6+1d6 Lightning

HP: 55

Defense: 14

DR: 9/Adamatine

Saves:
Fort +7
Ref +5
Will +4 (+6 vs Fear)

Skills:
Climb 10 +17
Intimidate 10 +13
Perception 10 +10
Survival 10 +13

Feats:
Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Weapon Specalization (Greatsword)
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Cleaving Finish
Improved Cleaving Finish
Shield of Swings

Racial Features
Human Bonuses Factored In

Class Features
Bravery (+2 to will vs. fear)
Armor Training
Weapon Training (Swords)
Style Mastery: Oversized Weaponmaster (Treats Weapons as 1 Size Category Smaller, +1 Defense When Wielding Large Weapon w/o shield)

Items
+1 Acidic Large Greatsword X2
+2 Field Plate

[Xathan]

First alpha test complete. I have some serious balance issues to work out...but it was also awesome. Thanks to Nomadic, Sparkletwist, and ElDo for testing!

[Superfluous Crow]

If you want to do more levels than 6, but keep the power level roughly at 6 HD then it would make more sense to do 12 (or even 18!) levels, so there'd be 2-3 levels for every HD.

[sparkletwist]

I personally didn't consider our characters nearly as overpowered as Xathan seems to think.

Our damage output was mighty, that is true, but that's also because our party was three melee-optimized fighters. That's pretty much all we were capable of. A more balanced party might not have had such a damage output, but it would've also been more realistic for actual adventuring. Given the dominance of spellcasters in d20 games, any sort of "Fighters sure are doing a lot of damage! GET THE NERF BAT!" mentality is not one I understand at all, because that's pretty much what they're designed to do.

Nerfing casters and then nerfing fighters so they feel as nerfed as the newly nerfed casters is how you end up with 4e.   

[Humabout]

Having only read the first post of this thread, I have a few general questions:

If you are limiting the number of HD to only 6, but not limiting the number of total levels 6, why bother gaining HD at different levels at all?  Why not just start play with X hp and Y HD?  If it's for various HD-dependent effects, why not accrue hp-less HD regularly to represent increased HD-ness?  It jsut strikes me that what you're trying to do is prevent hp from getting rediculously high.  There are other ways to handle it aside from only giving out HD for the first coupel fo levels.  Frex....

Everyone might start play with 3d4+12 hp and 1 HD (whatever that means mechanically).  One of the feats/optional class features/whatever-you-decide-to-call-it that you may acquire at regular intervals through XP acquisition gives you more hp (say another 1d4+4 or w/e you decide).  This lets people who wnat to play tough guys dump XP into more hp while letting those who'd rather be squishy allocate XP elsewhere.  The tough guy will probably get hit a lot, so his hp total will be his class power, while the squishy is a glass cannon in some other way.

Again, you could give a regular BAB increase with feat options that boost it further or grant additional attacks.  This makes it a little more versatile while preserving the d20 system.  Actually, you could do the same thing with yoru saves. Heck, even 3e did this to an extent with feats like Lightning Reflexes and such.

If you don't mind adding one roll to combat rounds, you could tweak AC a little for an interesting effect:  instead of having a true AC, you have a Basic Defense Bonus (BDB) that gets added to a 1d20 roll that opposes your attackers attack roll.  The BAB is comprised of your level bonus to BAB + feats improving your defenses + magic item bonuses improving your defenses + shield bonuses.  Note, however, that armor does not provide a bonus.  Instead, use Iron Heroes system of armor granting DR.  Now, your skill is opposed by an opponent's skill, so it's easily scaleable and justified.

With the above suggestions, note #7 is moot.  Those things you worry about blowing out of proportion with increased level don't scale at all with level, and XP is for buying cool class abilities/feats/whatevers.  Some of those whatevers can be dumped into increasing those nonscaleables, but because that's resources not spent elsewhere, the classes should stay balanced.  Heck, tweak this right, and you won't even need more than a single class progression, really; but that might be taking it too far for your tastes.

[Xathan]

Superfluous Crow

If you want to do more levels than 6, but keep the power level roughly at 6 HD then it would make more sense to do 12 (or even 18!) levels, so there'd be 2-3 levels for every HD.

I'm definitely considering that - the only problem I have with this, and the only thing holding me back, is monster balance becomes much more complex at this point. Other than that, there's also how progression feels - I'm not sure if it will feel better to gain all 6 HD within first 6 levels or to have 12/18 levels where you're gaining stuff, including the occasional HD spaced out. But that's going to require a full out campaign of playing to really test that out. So...6 HD for now, but 12/18 are on the table as definite options. (I'd just really need to do some heavy work on monster scaling.)

sparkletwist

I personally didn't consider our characters nearly as overpowered as Xathan seems to think.

Our damage output was mighty, that is true, but that's also because our party was three melee-optimized fighters. That's pretty much all we were capable of. A more balanced party might not have had such a damage output, but it would've also been more realistic for actual adventuring. Given the dominance of spellcasters in d20 games, any sort of "Fighters sure are doing a lot of damage! GET THE NERF BAT!" mentality is not one I understand at all, because that's pretty much what they're designed to do.

Nerfing casters and then nerfing fighters so they feel as nerfed as the newly nerfed casters is how you end up with 4e.   

I guess I should have clarified that - my current stance is not "Nerf Fighters," it's "Buff Monsters to where they pose an appropriate threat." You guys did a ton of damage and it was awesome, but that monster was much easier than it should have a did - I ran a sim of similarly built Pathfinder fighters with same ability scores/feats/skills and armor as DR, and they got slaughtered, even with no buffs to the dragon and the dragon using the same tactics. Monsters need a buff so they're on par with the new classes.

Humabout

Having only read the first post of this thread, I have a few general questions:

[snip]

I snipped that first part because it was based around the idea of HD not being tied to level, which is something I've decided not to do. (should probably update first post) There's some interesting ideas in there, and I'm going to keep them in mind, but it'll probably be when I consider post-6 play when I start looking at those - right now, I'm focusing on levels 1-6, just because that A) requires the least design choices on my part and B) is the most critical to balance. BY NO MEANS am I ignoring what you posted here - I'm just saving much of it for later development.

Quote

If you don't mind adding one roll to combat rounds, you could tweak AC a little for an interesting effect:  instead of having a true AC, you have a Basic Defense Bonus (BDB) that gets added to a 1d20 roll that opposes your attackers attack roll.  The BAB is comprised of your level bonus to BAB + feats improving your defenses + magic item bonuses improving your defenses + shield bonuses.  Note, however, that armor does not provide a bonus.  Instead, use Iron Heroes system of armor granting DR.  Now, your skill is opposed by an opponent's skill, so it's easily scaleable and justified.

I actually did rolling defense in Mutants and Masterminds, and I liked how it worked out there - and interestingly enough, it typically favors the defender. It does mean fights drag out longer, especially with the massive amounts of attacks that can be made (A full attack two weapon fighter with the right feats can make 5 or 6 attacks in a round, for example), which would mean a ton of defensive rolls as well. So it's on the table, and I'm going to try it out in playtesting and see if it's smooth enough to work.

Quote

With the above suggestions, note #7 is moot.  Those things you worry about blowing out of proportion with increased level don't scale at all with level, and XP is for buying cool class abilities/feats/whatevers.  Some of those whatevers can be dumped into increasing those nonscaleables, but because that's resources not spent elsewhere, the classes should stay balanced.  Heck, tweak this right, and you won't even need more than a single class progression, really; but that might be taking it too far for your tastes.

A single class progression for saves, attack bonus (but not number of attacks) and defensive bonus is becoming very likely as I class balance, even without some of the changes - it keeps people on a more even playing field, solves several balance problems, but still allows plenty of other rooms to feel unique. It's good to hear someone else reaching the same conclusion because I was nervous about that change - makes me more comfortable with it.

[Humabout]

Xathan Back Again

It's good to hear someone else reaching the same conclusion because I was nervous about that change - makes me more comfortable with it.

Glad I could help!  If I get any other crazy ideas, I'll let you know.  Oooh!  Actually, here's one!  Have you considered spending XP directly on feats and abilities?  Or do you prefer to maintain a leveled structure?  I'm just thinking that making, say frex, Evasion worth 400 XP and Weapon Focus worth 550 XP, it lets you better fine-tune the balancing between class abilities, increased BAB/BDB, incresed saves, and heck! additional HD or hp.

[Xathan]

Humabout

Xathan Back Again

It's good to hear someone else reaching the same conclusion because I was nervous about that change - makes me more comfortable with it.

Glad I could help!  If I get any other crazy ideas, I'll let you know.  Oooh!  Actually, here's one!  Have you considered spending XP directly on feats and abilities?  Or do you prefer to maintain a leveled structure?  I'm just thinking that making, say frex, Evasion worth 400 XP and Weapon Focus worth 550 XP, it lets you better fine-tune the balancing between class abilities, increased BAB/BDB, incresed saves, and heck! additional HD or hp.

Funny you should mention that - that's actually the way E6 does handle post 6 progression, and I made X20 because I'm not a fan of that. It's just my type A personality - I like the flavor and neat linearity classes provide. Of course, that doesn't mean I can't include it as an option, since post-6 classes won't effect your base stats, so you could either go with a class OR buy things separately...

[Humabout]

Woops!  That was my Gurps showing.  I'll tuck it back out of sight again :p

I also made mention of it because I knew a guy who was developing a point-based d20 system a few years ago, and last I had heard, it turned out pretty good.

[Xathan]

Humabout

Woops!  That was my Gurps showing.  I'll tuck it back out of sight again :p

I also made mention of it because I knew a guy who was developing a point-based d20 system a few years ago, and last I had heard, it turned out pretty good.

Hehehe, nothing wrong with that!

And I play a point based d20 system - Mutants and Masterminds - quite frequently. I love it - it's one of my favorite systems - but just not the direction I want to go. Partially because it also involves much more work for me, and I am a lazy bastard.

[Humabout]

A man after my own heart!  That laziness led me to just adopt a different system someone else already slaved over   Now I just kill myself tryign to cobble together settings, since no one has made the sort of weird settings I like.