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46  Campaign Creation / Roleplaying / Re: The Republic Reborn [Votes due March 19th] on: March 22, 2013, 01:40:26 PM

Light Dragon

OOC: after construction starts, could you please label the Pincian Hill on an updated map?

Sure.  An overhaul of the Rome map is long overdue anyway.
47  Campaign Creation / Roleplaying / Re: The Republic Reborn [Votes due March 19th] on: March 22, 2013, 03:37:02 AM

To Senator De Vinti

Senator,

I am growing somewhat impatient with the lack of progress on the institution the Senate has now had a year to begin.  I have made the decision to remain in Rome at least until January; the roads are muddy this time of year and this land seems to be beset by bandits.  If meaningful progress has been made by that time, I will consider staying longer.  The new consul may seek me out if he wishes; I see no need to remind the Senate of their agreement with me.  I believe that if they value my services they will act appropriately.

I appreciate your faithfulness to our agreement and your hospitality in this past year.

Magister Rogerius Placentianus

The University Project

I thought I’d clarify the status of the university OOC, and then answer LD’s questions.

Last season, Consul de Vinti approved 5 WP for the construction of the new university.  Construction did not start, however, because some concerns arose about the vulnerability of the proposed site to flooding; de Vinti’s builders searched for a new site and ultimately settled on the Pincian Hill (not labeled on the map, but it’s the hill that forms the north border of Rome, running along the inside of the city wall).  The construction is just on the cusp of starting, which is why the money hasn’t been deducted from the treasury.  De Vinti stated earlier that the reason for this move was a fear of flooding and the availability of water, which presumably other hill locations lacked.

Now, to specific questions:

Quote

Could the University be placed next to the Baths of Trajan on the Esquiline Hill?

Presumably, yes, though there’s not much access to water, and that might be problematic from the perspective of establishing a more or less permanent community of students and scholars.  Nobody really lives there except some goat-herders.

Quote

Alternatively, what's wrong with the Quirnial Hill?

De Vinti appears to have rejected it because his whole intent was to locate it along the newly functioning aqueduct, and the Quirinal Hill – as you have noted – is quite high, well above the Aqua Virgo to the point where it sort of defeats the purpose of being near it.  The Aqua Virgo goes underground right at the Pincian Hill – it runs right into the southern slope of the hill and remains underground for the rest of its length.  The new site seems to be located some distance above that.

Quote

Alternatively, Manzinni wishes to place the University in a generally sturdy area that may flood every 20 years, but he hopes to build a sturdy tower in which to host the books.

That’s a reasonable proposal, though building the structure up will probably increase the cost.  Unfortunately, there isn’t really such a thing as fire-proofing in the 12th century. Even towers and palaces of stone have wooden floors and supports, and plenty of stone palaces, churches, and monasteries were gutted by fire in this day and age.

Quote

Also, would M know about the cost-increases that DaVinti's plan involves?

All Manzinni would know is that de Vinti authorized 5 WP from the treasury for the project.  Presumably, that money is being spent on the construction; specific “cost increases” are unknown to you unless he’s informed you of them personally.

Quote

Essentially, M is hoping to see if he can do it for cheaper than the 5WP De Vinti outlaid for the purpose--and he thinks it's possible because he doesn't share DeVinti's cares about flooding-he's most concerned about fire.

The only way to build the university more cheaply is to build it on a substantial ruin that allows you to have some walls already existent; lots of structures in medieval Rome were built around ancient structures to utilize existing architecture.  De Vinti’s original plan was to save money in this way by building it in some existing ruins just north of the endpoint of the Aqua Virgo (not shown on map), but this was evidently scrapped because of flooding concerns.
48  Campaign Creation / Campaign Elements and Design / Re: Underdeep-like Games Poll on: March 20, 2013, 07:12:20 PM

Superbright

Sorry if I insinuated that you only focused on pure strategy or anything! I do completely agree with your definition of a meta motivation, I just thought it was a lot more verboten than some other players do.

Nah, I didn't interpret anything as an insinuation - I just wanted to make sure my description of pure strategy as divisible from roleplaying wasn't taken to mean that I endorse one over the other, or that I personally have been pursuing one to the exclusion of the other.

I don't find meta-motivations to be problematic in general, though they could be problematic in some situations - for instance, if another player was my friend and I decided that my goal in the game would be to help him achieve his goals, or if a player was someone I didn't like and I decided to remove him from the game posthaste.  It's not always possible to totally dissociate how we feel about players from how our characters feel about their characters, of course, because we're human beings.  I think the important thing is to try and differentiate between "benevolent" meta-motivations ("I want everyone to enjoy this game and have a good time") and more self-serving meta-motivations.

It's entirely reasonable to temper roleplaying with a desire to improve the experience generally, which is one reason I don't like using the term "metagaming" to describe this behavior - as I said in the earlier thread about metagaming, I prefer to keep the term limited to a purely negative connotation, like "cheating."  That way, I can say in my game rules "no metagaming" and presumably we don't need to have a whole discussion about whether wanting to have fun counts as a prohibited activity.
49  Campaign Creation / Campaign Elements and Design / Re: Underdeep-like Games Poll on: March 20, 2013, 03:22:44 PM

Superbright

I agree with most of what Polycarp said, though I do have a few disagreements. It might be because I approached the Underdeep game from the perspective that it wasn't just a wargame, but I assumed that every player would, to a certain extent, at "roleplay" their faction. Not to the extent that it totally violated strategy, of course, but enough that every decision wasn't based entirely on what would have the best chance of mechanical success.

Well, just because I admit that such a thing as pure strategy is possible without roleplaying doesn't mean I practice it in this game or believe that it is advisable; as Steerpike pointed out, it was, from the beginning, described as a roleplay game.  I think the nature of the Glow's character is more conducive to pure strategy than, say, the nature of Lothe and his Dwerim - the Glow generally thinks in objective terms of threats and non-threats, rather than friends, enemies, honor, dishonor, and so on - but I don't pursue pure strategic aims independently of what I interpret the character's motivations to be.

I have placed some similar limits on myself - TMG pointed out in chat that I probably could have eliminated his faction by turn 2 or 3, and I don't doubt that this is true (it had occurred independently to me at the time).  I didn't do this because it wasn't consistent with my character's motivations, as well as for the reason that I value the mutual experience of a game and don't want to eliminate people before they've really even started playing (that's a "meta" motivation, of course, but not metagaming strictly defined, which to me means using information that a character would not know to affect the player's actions).
50  Campaign Creation / Roleplaying / Re: The Republic Reborn [Votes due March 19th] on: March 19, 2013, 09:05:10 PM

A close election

The election of 1157 ended by consensus when senators supporting Senator Borsarius announced their support for the two lead candidates, Roberto Basile and Vittorio Manzinni.  This holdout party appears to have split their votes, giving the slightest of advantages to Senator Basile, who carried the majority by a very narrow margin.

As the winner, Senator Basile is entitled to choose his portfolio.  And while we're in the senate...

The Senate Floor

The Senate is abuzz with discussion of the banditry in the Alban Hills.  There is broad, perhaps even overwhelming support for action; the more radical and populist senators have faulted the consuls and consiliarii for this, claiming that if Rome had taken a firmer hand against Tivoli’s reception of Pandolfo Cassi, for instance, nobody would have dared assault Roman merchants on the roads.  The impetus for action, however, is not just by the lower-class radicals.  Even the merchant equites, typically among the most dovish of senators, have conceded that Rome cannot simply stand by when its commerce is threatened.

There is a fierce debate between senators as to what action should be taken, and against whom.  Predictably, the firebrands demand that Tusculum itself be sacked, but even more moderate senators have been debating some kind of armed venture.  To the objection that the Treaty of Campus Neronius forbids Rome to “make war” on a Papal vassal, they counter that a measured armed response would not be war, but justice, fair and proportionate retribution for illegal acts upon Roman citizens.  Surely, they say, the Pope would not retaliate against Rome defending its own citizens; having just lost a war with the Normans, the Pope surely does not wish to start a new war with the Romans.

Yet if such action were to be taken, who would it fall upon?  Many hold the Counts of Tusculum responsible, but no connection to the bandits has been proven.  A few grumble (not very loudly) that the senators only call for their punishment because of residual hostility from the Basile incident, or just the traditional hostility of the Romans to the Tusculani.  If someone is not made into an example, however, the senators fear that the next indignity against Roman liberty will not be long in coming.

………

Though the talk of trouble in the south dominates the senate floor, there is also the trouble in the north to consider.  The war in Tuscany continues unabated, and many Romans have suffered indirectly from the predations of mercenaries and bandits on the
Via Francigena.  All agree that Rome ought to do whatever it can to either resolve the conflict or protect the road in the coming spring.

Some senators suggest that Rome might play a diplomatic role in ending the conflict; others dismiss this as ridiculous, and say that Rome should enter the war itself.  Those pro-war senators, however, are divided on which side the city would support – some, particularly the wealthier merchants, are pro-Pisa; the populists and radicals denounce this proposal, saying that Rome – if it stands with anyone – ought to stand with the fellow communes of Florence, Prato, and Lucca, not the league led by Guido Guerra and his aristocratic friends.

Another group of senators believes that Rome should simply act to secure the road, and send a proper force to protect pilgrims.  While this would cost money, they say, is not the protection of Roman prosperity a most worthwhile thing for the senate to spend money on?  Others counter that Rome could not control enough of the road to be meaningful, and it might incur the suspicion and hostility of both sides.

Finally, there are some voices that call for the petitioning of the Pope for aid in this matter.  Now that His Holiness has returned from Benevento, perhaps he would lend his considerable influence to stopping the war or at least requiring the observance of the Truce of God during this critical time
[The Truce of God is a 150 year-old concept in the Church that warfare between Christians ought to be forbidden at certain religiously important times of the year].  The radicals mock this proposal, however, as unworthy of an independent senate, and some senators publicly doubt that any of the belligerents will listen to the Pope, let alone bandits who have already proven themselves willing to rob humble pilgrims.

………

The Senate looks to their leaders, particularly their new consuls, for a solution to these problems.
51  Campaign Creation / Campaign Elements and Design / Re: Underdeep-like Games Poll on: March 19, 2013, 12:57:45 PM
I chose Politics, Building Cities, and Roleplaying, which should not surprise anyone who's playing RR with me. smile

I do think the separation between politics and roleplay is a meaningful and significant one.  Risk, for instance, is a game of politics, but not a game of roleplaying.  I disagree, however, that "politics" in inherently non-roleplay, as Llum seems to suggest.  Let me put it this way: seeking an alliance that fits with your "character" is roleplaying; seeking an alliance that is optimal in game terms regardless of your "character" is pure strategy; seeking an alliance at all is politics.  "Politics" in game terms is the use of communications to further game ends, regardless of whether your ends are to conquer the world, defend a certain territory, or support a certain roleplay agenda.  Politics, then, may involve roleplay, or even be intended to secure roleplaying goals, but it can also be utilized from the perspective of pure strategy, and in that sense it is a different kind of beast.

Thus, Humabout is correct in terms of what kinds of means compose politics (propaganda, psychology, etc.) but not, I think, in terms of roleplaying being a "restriction" on politics.  Rather, roleplaying tends to be a restriction on pure strategy - though even this is too simplistic, as sometimes roleplaying itself can inform strategic thinking when you are reasonably certain that someone will act a certain way because of their commitment to roleplaying their character in a certain way.  Since "game politics" is merely the use of communications to achieve ends, whether those ends are strategic or character-based, it doesn't make sense to say that politics are limited by either the presence of roleplaying or the lack thereof.

I disagree that politics without roleplaying is "metagaming," because metagaming is a term that only has meaning when you are already roleplaying; if you're not playing a character, you can't metagame.  There's no such thing, for instance, as "metagaming" in Risk; you can cheat in Risk, but you can't metagame.  You could, I suppose, say that everyone is roleplaying based on Steerpike's definition above, but I tend to disagree that in any situation in which there are user-defined goals there is roleplaying.  Roleplaying, to me, requires characterization, because it's the presence of a character that separates the "game" from the "metagame."  Just because I create an arbitrary goal for myself does not, in my opinion, mean that I am playing a character.
52  Campaign Creation / Roleplaying / Re: The Republic Reborn [Votes due March 19th] on: March 18, 2013, 07:51:43 PM

Current Tally

Election of 1157
Total votes: 27*
Votes cast: 21
Votes remaining: 6

Senator Manzinni: 10
Senator Basile: 6
Senator Borsarius: 5

This is the current tally before bribery is applied.  The deadline is Tuesday, March 19th.  The election may also end earlier by consensus if there are only two candidates with votes after all votes have been cast.

*Fortis Calafatus is not present in Rome and thus does not contribute to the vote total.
53  Campaign Creation / Roleplaying / Re: The Republic Reborn [Votes due March 19th] on: March 17, 2013, 05:43:52 PM

Current Tally

Election of 1157
Total votes: 27*
Votes cast: 10
Votes remaining: 17

Senator Manzinni: 10

This is the current tally before bribery is applied.  The deadline is Tuesday, March 19th.  The election may also end earlier by consensus if there are only two candidates with votes after all votes have been cast.

*Fortis Calafatus is not present in Rome and thus does not contribute to the vote total.
54  Campaign Creation / Roleplaying / Re: Underdeep: Month of the Rat, Week 2 (Orders due March 24) on: March 15, 2013, 11:45:43 PM
The Glow - Fungoids - Week 6

The Glow Theme

Kin

The Child opened her mind to the visions, and the alien magic revealed many things.  Dwarves, elves, goblins… the distinctions between flesh had never been of much interest to her.  Flesh was flesh; it was all born, it all died, it all decayed.  Yet these little, seemingly meaningless things now divided them severely.  They fought and bled.  They would send their children to their deaths.

The Child was no pacifist; there were threats, and there were not-threats, and sometimes children must die to create the latter from the former.  Yet as she watched this present death from afar, it seemed terribly wrong.  The violence of the flesh was known; she could remember the sharpness that had killed… no, not her.  That One.  The other, she was dead, not the Child.  But she recalled the sharpness, and now saw how quickly, how strangely the flesh would turn to it.

The visions faded, but uncertainty still lingered in her mind.  Far below, beneath the waters of the Heart, the Dreamer echoed her thoughts, and dreamt darkly of flesh.


55  Campaign Creation / Roleplaying / Re: The Republic Reborn [Updated!] on: March 15, 2013, 03:05:07 AM

Voting

Your votes for Consul are due by Tuesday, March 19th.  Please let me know if you will need additional time.  Bribes, if sent, must also be received by the end of that day.
56  Campaign Creation / Roleplaying / Re: The Republic Reborn [Updated!] on: March 14, 2013, 11:16:10 PM
Ah, I didn't mean to charge you for that.  Sorry, corrected.

See, this is why I ask everyone to look over their orders. smile
57  Campaign Creation / Roleplaying / Re: The Republic Reborn [Updated!] on: March 14, 2013, 10:43:00 PM
Alright!  As usual, tell me if there's anything that needs correcting, or if I owe you any letters.

The unit library has been expanded with the addition of Norman Knights and the Saracen Guard.

Expect a presentation of an upgrade to our economic system this turn, probably after elections.  Some players have already seen what's coming, but we'll have a chance this turn to talk about it before implementation.
58  Campaign Creation / Roleplaying / Re: The Republic Reborn [Orders Due March 8th] on: March 14, 2013, 10:22:04 PM
Consular Election of 1157

Senators, it is time to decide who will lead our glorious city in the coming year!

 

Election Rules

All PCs are eligible for Consular status, though a character who wins an election may choose not to accept the position if he so desires.  All PCs are eligible to cast a ballot, though casting a ballot is not mandatory.

Each character has a number of votes equal to his Influence score.  When you cast a ballot, you must choose how these votes are allotted.  You may spend all your votes on one candidate or split votes between candidates however you wish.  A ballot should be in a red OOC box like this one, and be in this format:

Election of 1156

Your Senator’s Name

4 votes to Senator X
2 votes to Senator Y

The ballot is not secret.  Who voted for whom is in-character information known by all.  The whole Senate, all 100 members, takes part in this vote; our game simulates this using Influence, meaning that when you “cast a ballot” it actually represents your character and his friends and/or family actively cajoling and convincing NPC senators to vote your way.  This is a tedious process of pandering speeches, cloying flattery, empty promises, and boring dinner parties, and is by definition not a private matter.

Bribery, specifically the expenditure of Wealth to buy votes, is permitted.  Bribery will alter the final count of votes, depending on how much Wealth was spent.  Bribery works by  “stealing” one vote from a candidate of your choice and giving it to another candidate of your choice.  Stealing a vote in this way costs 2 WP.  It may be obvious that people were bribed if the final result doesn’t match who players actually voted for, but there will be no direct indication of who bribed them unless the bribery is discovered.

If the bribery is discovered, there will be a scandal resulting in a loss of Influence.  The chances of a bribe becoming a scandal are 10% for each vote bought.  Note that a scandal does not mean the bribe was unsuccessful – it is still possible to win an election by bribery despite a scandal, but the loss of Influence may make it difficult to hold on to power.

If you choose to bribe, it should ONLY be done by sending me a PM indicating how much you are spending and who the bribed Senators are supposed to vote for.  If you post a bribe in this thread, it will not be accepted, and I will laugh at you.  Bribes are non-refundable!

The two players with the most votes (after Bribery) are elected Consuls.  The Consul who receives the most votes has the privilege of deciding which Consul, external or internal, he wishes to be.  Ties will be resolved in favor of who has the most Influence or, failing that, a coin flip.
59  Campaign Creation / Roleplaying / Re: The Republic Reborn [Orders Due March 8th] on: March 14, 2013, 10:21:33 PM
Anno Domini MCLVII
Summer has passed into Autumn…
In autumn, laborers take to the farmlands to plow the fields and sow the winter wheat, while in the hills grapes and olives must be picked and pressed.  This is a busy time in Rome, for much work needs to be done between the withering summer and the onset of winter.  The wealthy return to the city from their country estates this season, and the Church prepares for the celebration of All Saints’ Day.  On the water, merchants hurry to complete their routes before the winter storms make the sea treacherous, and citizens watch the Tiber warily, for floods come most often in autumn

Our Consuls: Roberto Basile and Vittorio Manzinni
Our Pope: Adrian IV
Our Prefect: Pietro II Colonna
Our Rage: Simmering [3]

This Season’s Top 5 Popular Issues

1. "We won’t stand for another tyrannical Prefect!"
2. "The roads must be safe for Roman citizens!"
3. "It is time to restore justice in Rome."
4. "The war in Tuscany is crippling us."
5. "Hurrah for Arnold!  Drive out Boso and the Papists!"

News from Abroad

The Emperor Friedrich “Barbarossa” von Hohenstaufen has invaded Poland.  The Empire has long considered Poland to be a vassal state – a status which the Poles have never happily accepted – but this latest expedition may be due to the machinations of Wladyslaw II, former High Duke of Poland who was overthrown and exiled by his half-brothers in 1146.  Wladyslaw has been attempting to gain support for an expedition to depose his half-brother Boleslaw IV and reclaim the crown for himself ever since – and he seems to have finally succeeded.

Alfonso VII “The Emperor,” King of Castille, Leon, and Galicia, has died.  Alfonso was an immeasurably powerful monarch, ruling all of Christian Iberia save Portugal, Barcelona, and Navarre.  Alfonso had himself crowned “Emperor of All Spain” in 1137 and led several crusades against the infidels, conquering Almeria from the Almoravids in 1147, but the invading Almohads retook the city and forced the Spanish kingdoms back on the defensive.  His empire has been split between his two surviving sons, Sancho III of Castille and Ferdinand II of Leon; many fear that the division of the realm will only encourage the warlike Almohads.

A joint Catalan-Arborean naval force under Hugh de Cervera, Viscount of Bas and brother-in-law of Guidice Barisone II of Arborea, has raided the isle of Mallorca.  They are said to have driven off the ships of the island’s emir, Ishaq ibn Muhammad, and returned with a great sum of booty.

It has been reported that an Almohad army has attacked the city of Mahdia, one of the last major African ports under Sicilian control.  The situation there is yet unclear.

News of Italy

In late June, the Battle of Galluccio was fought between the Greek and rebel army of protostrator Alexios Axouch and the royalist Sicilian army of King William de Hauteville.  The result of the battle was not immediately certain; there were some travelers who claimed that the Sicilians won, while others insisted it was a resounding Greek victory.  It seems clear, however, that the Sicilians – if they did win – were unable to make much of their advantage.  Though Capua fell to the Sicilians before the battle, the town of San Germano and most of the royalist-held castles in the vicinity (which William had been marching to protect) surrendered to the Greeks by the end of July.  The revolt continues elsewhere in the Sicilian kingdom, and it is rumored that the forces of Kosmas Bariotes have succeeded in breaking out of Bari and causing more trouble in Apulia.

The battle has been tentatively named after the town of Galluccio less than two miles away, but the name has an ironic angle as well – in 1139, Duke Roger III of Apulia, William’s older brother (who died in 1148), ambushed Pope Innocent II and his forces near Galluccio, taking the Pope prisoner and forcing him to recognize their father’s kingship over Sicily.  The obvious implication that William is not equal to the deeds of his predecessors has given anti-Normans no small amount of delight.

Though the war in Tuscany continues to be an interminable struggle of raid and counter-raid, a major engagement did occur between the armies of Pisa and Lucca in early July.  The Pisans reportedly won a signal victory, chased the Lucchese militia back to their city walls, and burned acres of cropland in the Lucchese contado right around harvest time.  The Pisans are surely celebrating their victory.

News of Latium

In August, Pope Adrian IV and the Curia moved from Benevento, where they have resided since the outbreak of the Sicilian war, to Anagni in Latium.  They were joined there in August by the Pope’s nephew and chamberlain, Boso Breaskspeare, who was made Cardinal-Deacon of SS. Cosma e Damiano by His Holiness.

Later that month, two Roman citizens - merchants on their way to the city of Ninfa to sell oil and cloth - were ambushed, beaten, and robbed by bandits on the Via Appia not far south of Velletri.  Having survived their ordeal, they petitioned the Roman Senate for redress of their grievances; they do not know the names of their assailants, but claim they were mounted and armed as knights.  A number in the Senate blame the Count(s) of Tusculum, for the Tusculani control Velletri and thus – they claim – should be responsible for the security of public roads nearby.

News of Rome

Rome was swept by a terrible epidemic in July.  The ague swept through the city like wildfire.  Hundreds have died, particularly in the poor riverside districts; in some neighborhoods the toll has been so great that bodies were simply burned instead of buried.  Great crowds have congregated at churches and reliquaries to petition the saints to save themselves and their families.  More sporadic cases continued through August.  Though as usual, the poor were affected most by this epidemic, the great men of Rome have not been spared either – most notably, the Roman Prefect, Pietro Colonna, has taken gravely ill.  There is some ill luck indeed in the fact that the Roman Fever this summer has stricken a man who spent every summer outside Rome, without fail, until this very year.

The Roman Senate has voted to reject the proposals to exile the radical preacher Wetzel and to issue an ultimatum to Tivoli over the traitor Pandolfo Cassi who now resides there.  Cassi has been stripped of his lands and titles, as have the lesser conspirators, who were exiled from the city; it was proposed in the Senate that they be eligible to ask for consideration of their re-admission in ten years, which had fairly broad agreement, but no formal vote was made.  [2W] in seized goods and properties was liquidated and added to the Roman treasury.

Shabbathai ben Moses, leader of the ebreo of Rome, is reported to have died this season, possibly as a result of the epidemic – though he was also very advanced in years.  The Jews have elected Nathan ben Mordechai as the rabbi and leader of their community.

Finances

Treasury: 15 WP

State Projects:
  • Porta Asinaria Repair [10/10]

Income: 2 WP
  • Duty, Patrician Pierleone: 1 WP
  • Papal Stipend: 1 WP

Expenditures: 0 WP


Senatorial Inquests

Senators that requested information or launched endeavors have the results of their efforts listed here.  This information is private, but you may certainly choose to share it with the Senate.






60  Campaign Creation / Roleplaying / Re: The Republic Reborn [Orders Due March 8th] on: March 12, 2013, 10:28:32 PM
Yes, I forgot to add that to our earlier list of issues to vote on.  The update is still in progress and won't be done today, so please make your character's opinion known on this if you have one.  Please make a new post rather than adding it to your orders, as the OOC orders posts have already been copied down.

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