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« on: December 11, 2009, 07:19:22 AM »

A bit of history: I've been working on a system with dependent abilities since this thread.  I put out something preliminary with NTSA, but that was too narrowly focused.  Since then, I've read a lot more systems (and played a few too), and I've been working on a system based on NTSA but with a little more influence from other systems (the basic mechanics, however, are pretty similar).

My original plan was to get something "complete" and then post it, but I realized that this was dumb.  I've also been a bit exasperated lately by too many different mechanics and ideas - there's so much promising stuff out there, and it's hard to decide what's worthwhile and what's just a fun distraction.

At some point I decided that I was going to be developing this system with an eye towards using it with the Clockwork Jungle.  While it doesn't have any system-specific mechanics, I do try and craft it into something that works with the themes of the setting.  That said, I may or may not end up using it; there are commercial systems that I think would probably work out just fine.  Still, I'd like to make some kind of finished product out of the system.











I'll be working on this on and off, as I get time and new ideas; this thread is my new workshop for system stuff.  Comments are welcome.
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2009, 01:54:09 PM »

It seems really interesting...will keep an eye on it!
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2009, 03:36:18 PM »

Keep it up... and once you finish you are obligated to run a CJ game online tongue
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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2009, 06:51:41 PM »

Development Decisions

So I thought I'd go into a bit of "why."

Why not dice pools?
I got pretty enamored with dice pools since I learned about and then played Riddle of Steel some months ago.  It's a fun system if you've got the patience to learn it.  I decided, however, that ultimately the dice system was just too complicated.  In TRoS, you could alter probability in multiple different ways:

You could increase/decrease the number of dice in the pool.
You could increase/decrease the number needed for a dice to count as a success.
You could increase/decrease the number of successes required for a task or result.

The upshot of this is that you actually need a statistics major to understand the full implication of what you're doing.  Which is better, getting 1 additional dice in the pool, or making it easier for the dice to roll a success?  How does that change depending on the size of the pool?  What about multiple successes?  All of this is interesting but it's not really necessary, especially if all I'm interested in is replicating a moderately faithful standard deviation from a norm.

Standard deviations are what Fudge dice do best.  They come up +1, 0, or -1 most of the time, with the largest results (+/-4) much more difficult to achieve than rolling a 20 on a d20.  The d6-d6 method does make things a little more random than standard Fudge, but at least I can look at a probability table and know what the hell I'm doing.

Why 4?
"4 ranks per attribute advancement" is totally and completely arbitrary.  In NTSA, it was 5.  Too high and too low are both bad, but it's hard to know what is what without actual testing.  Since I'm nowhere near that point yet, 4 is really a placeholder.

What happened to hard/soft caps?
NTSA's soft and hard caps were needlessly complicated.  I recently learned about FATE's "pyramid" system in which you have to have a bottom-heavy skill assortment - if you have X skills at level 3, then you need X+1 at level 2, and X+2 at level 1 (that's not really how FATE works but you get the idea).  The idea behind all of it, of course, is to prevent super-specialization that results in someone being a god among men at one specific thing (usually this is combat) but absolutely sucking at everything else.

FATE tries to explain why you might need to take a totally unrelated skill (basketweaving, I think, is their example) before advancing a skill like swordfighting, and it's moderately persuasive.  I feel that my system is better, however, because it creates similar limitations in specific categories.  With Synergy, at least when you're taking other skills to better your combat skill, you are taking skills that are related to it instead of just grabbing any skill to meet your requirement.

But again, "attribute+2" is totally arbitrary.  It's another thing that will have to be borne out by playtesting in the distant future.
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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2009, 07:30:25 PM »

I am captivated. The system itself is intriguing, but the glimpse into the thought processes that support it is invaluable.
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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2009, 08:49:58 PM »

Development Decisions II

A Long Post Approacheth

More recent modifications to TRoS by the developers introduced a sort of static skill roll, where the number needed for a success is set and unchanging (6 or 7 out of a d10, don't remember exactly).  This takes one variable out of the mix... but if the odds of success on a die is now fixed to 50% or close to it, why are you rolling d10s?  Why not just flip a lot of coins?

I can't deny that there is a certain tactile element to dice that people enjoy.  I enjoy it too, which is why I'd never do a diceless system (well, there are other reasons, but that's one).  Reading the comments of the TRoS developers, however, were enlightening - there were forum comments like "we know more about probability than some of you assume."  No doubt, but the whole "fixed-number-for-success" mechanic struck me as something of a concession to the fact that the developers are probably the only ones who know how TRoS's dice mechanic actually works.

Zero-ing dice

But there is another problem with dice pools.  Well, it's not really a problem, but calling it a feature seems a little euphemistic.  Consider d20 - a simple mechanic that can "zero" anywhere.  By this, I mean that the difference between a dude with a +2 modifier to something and a dude with a +5 modifier to the same thing is exactly the same, mechanically speaking, as if their modifiers were +0 and +3, +1,002 and +1,005, or -17 and -14.  A difference of 3 is a difference of 3 regardless of where you are on the scale.

That doesn't work for dice pools.  The difference between someone with 5 dice and someone with 6 dice is very, very different than the difference between someone with 1 die and someone with 2 dice.  Where you "zero" the system is very important because the statistics don't scale like d20 does; the more dice you're dealing with, the less important a single die is.

Negative Territory

And what if you want that guy with 1 die to get weaker?  What do you do, ask him to throw zero dice?  Negative two dice?  Yeah, sorry... 1 is the bare minimum.  You can find other ways to penalize people below 1 die, of course, like raising the threshold of getting a success on that lonely die, but you're throwing your curve of probability out the window.  The difference between 1 die and 2 dice is huge.  The difference between 1d10 success on 7 and 1d10 success on 6?  Not so much.  And there's only so long you can do this for, because eventually you just can't make things any shittier, while d20 laughs at you because they can take the negatives as low as they want.  Say what you will about d20, but nobody can make a character as theoretically bad as they can.

So the point is that dice pool systems have to zero themselves very carefully.  If PCs start with their attributes at 1, there is going to be a very steep curve in which PCs gain huge relative power (1 to 2 is twice the dice!) and then trail off.  It means the opponents they face early on will be really tough even with only one or two more dice, while later opponents will have to really pour on the dice to gain a substantive mechanical advantage.

But this, though it presents some difficulties, is attractive for low power campaigns.  So you improved your Strength from 6 dice to 7?  Well, statistically, that's not really that impressive compared to the boost that 1 to 2 gave you, and returns just keep diminishing from there.  There is definitely an intrinsic advantage to spreading out your skills, because improving bad scores is generally a better use of your effort than further pushing great ones.

Am I Reconsidering?

No, I'm not reversing on dice pools - I still think they're unnecessary.  I do, however, like the idea of a system that presents a power "curve" that levels off, and when I say this I mean that the actual mechanics level off, not just that higher levels take more xp/time/whatever to achieve.  World of Warcraft has made it clear to everyone that grinding is no obstacle to an interested player, and scaling advancement levels doesn't change the fact that once you actually get there, you're insanely powerful.  The fact that D&D 3rd ed has scaling experience point levels doesn't change the fact that epic level characters are gods among men.

So how can I retain the simplicity of a Fudge-style dice mechanic while getting some scaling out of the deal?  That, I think, is the primary dilemma here.  Fudge presents a bit of a kludge solution - you can't get better than a certain level.  It just doesn't exist unless you're playing a superhero campaign.  One can argue that this is realistic - there are certain limits to human capacity.  Real life, however, is closer to the scaling dice pool; the difference between the 10 best swimmers in the world is very, very slight compared to the difference between any of them and me, but they still do practice.  It's not that there's a hard cap, but that each "level" they go up gets smaller and smaller in terms of benefit, to the point where shaving a millisecond off your time is quite an achievement.

My opinion is that a system with Fudge-style simplicity and standard deviation randomness plus TRoS-style dice scaling with diminishing returns would basically be the most awesome game system of all time.  But how do I do that?  Synergy doesn't really have the answer.  (Yet?)
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2009, 06:07:52 AM »

The Array System

Ok, this is a bit of a departure from Synergy as it currently exists, but I was thinking about the question I just asked myself.  How do I make a non-dice pool system, with randomness based on a normal distribution, that also scales to give mechanical diminishing returns?  Well, I think I answered that, though perhaps not in a very useful way.  The Array System is what you get when you combine the probability table of a dice pool system with a normal distribution dice mechanic.

The Array

The Array System is based on a probability table.  The numbers of the table are based on the probability that, if you roll X number of dice, at least one of these dice will show a "success" where success is defined as a chance equal to 1/N.  N is our "index number."  The higher N is, the "smoother" the curve - in other words, low index numbers will give us a very steep system in which higher levels fall in effectiveness dramatically, while a high index number will give us a system in which higher skill levels only gradually start to lose effectiveness.  Here's a sample table with levels 1-10 for an N of 6.

Note

You can see the diminishing returns - the difference between level 1 and 2 is 14 points, while the difference between 9 and 10 is only 3 points.


[th]Level[/th][th]Score[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]1[/td][td]17[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2[/td][td]31[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3[/td][td]42[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4[/td][td]52[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5[/td][td]60[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6[/td][td]67[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7[/td][td]72[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8[/td][td]77[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9[/td][td]81[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10[/td][td]84[/td][/tr][/table]
The Randomness

Now we add our normal distribution dice.  Normally I'd ask isomage about this first, but he's not here and I'm lazy, so we're going to skip it and go with d20-d20 instead.  This gives us a probability distribution that's basically pyramid-shaped.  There would be significantly fewer outliers if we used a method that actually gave us a normal distribution, but we'll assume for this example that the GM and players want some really random results.

The Skill Check

In the Array System, the GM sets a target number.  The player notes what his skill level is, takes the score indicated for that skill level, rolls our random dice, and adds the result to this score.  If the result is equal to or higher than the target number, the skill check is successful.  With our current dice distribution, the player's score could be modified from -19 to +19.

Let's say the target number is 75 for a certain task.  A player with Level 1 skill can't hope to accomplish it; he can only get a maximum of 17+19=36 even with supreme luck (the chance to get +19 is 1 in 400 - not good).  The lowest level player who could manage it is one with L5 skill, and he'd have to get at least a +15 (15 out of 400).  Here's a rough rundown of everybody's chances to get that 75.

[th]Skill[/th][th]Chance[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]5[/td][td]3.75%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6[/td][td]19.5%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7[/td][td]38.25%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8[/td][td]61.75%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9[/td][td]77.25%[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10[/td][td]86.25%[/td][/tr][/table]

You can see how the scaling works.  Our weird d20-d20 dice warps it a little bit, but you can at least glimpse the concept here.  If we wanted to make higher levels pay off even less, we could always go back to the original table and decrease the index number we used to generate the array.

Conclusion

It seems like array mechanics would actually be fairly flexible.  It's just a matter of tweaking your index number until you're satisfied with the curve and finding a method of dice rolling that gives the distribution you want.  The array allows you to use the randomness of a system like Fudge with the diminishing returns of high levels that dice pool systems boast, without the massively complicated probabilities of dice pools that I find to be unnecessary.

What are the weaknesses of the system?  Well, the most obvious one is aesthetic - you have to look up the score for your skill level, which is a seemingly arbitrary number.  This may not be appealing to all people.  There may well be some statistical errors I've made or problems I've overlooked.  I blame the late night for any errors and take no personal responsibility whatsoever.

Note: (Un)originality

I also accept no responsibility if this, or something like it, has already been done.  I think it's likely that someone has indeed made probability tables like this before and used them for the same purpose.  Since I haven't seen it around, however, I thought it would be worth posting about.

Compatibility

This could conceivably work with a Synergy-like mechanic.  All the Array system does is tell you what to do with skill ranks; the main point behind Synergy is how you get skill ranks and how skill ranks interact with attributes.  I'm going to have to think about the Array System a lot harder, however, before I decide whether it's worth including.
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« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2009, 12:33:16 AM »

Development Decisions III

Well, that whole Array thing is something for another time.  It was just an idea I got; now we let it stew for a while and come back to it later.  In the meantime, I've posted Part 2 of Synergy, a short little part about the "Integrity Attributes" of Health and Breath.

I've never been satisfied with the idea that Constitution/Stamina/whatever should impact how easily a character gets cut to ribbons.  One's physical constitution certainly impacts one's resistance to disease, but poison is a stretch, and you certainly can't take a sword blow any better because of it.  Stamina, which is what I use here, is even farther removed from health.  The upshot is that in Synergy, health is basically static, unaffected by either character advancement or abilities (though in Synergy, those are the same thing).  You can learn to defend yourself better, but if you get stabbed, you are in as much trouble as the baker's apprentice.  Such is the fragility of life.

Breath, as I mention, is a setting-specific concept.  You can read more about it in the thread/wiki, but in CJ the Breath is both the "life force" of the world and the actual, physical wind that living things breathe.  This leads to some rather interesting situations (for instance, you can't use magic if you're drowning).  Aside from being a "mana pool" of sorts, Breath points function a bit like Action Points, allowing even non-spellcasting characters to get some mileage out of them.

Breath advancing with attributes seems like a curious choice, but it works in the context of CJ.  In the setting, though all living things have the Breath within them, the truly great are believed to be more strongly imbued with it.  Mastery is intimately connected with mysticism '“ the legendary blacksmith is not just legendary because of technical merit, but because the quest for mastery over metal has also yielded mastery over the self, and no true legendary feat can be accomplished without self-mastery.  Anyone who is good at anything is considered to be more strongly imbued with the Breath than a novice, even if they've never studied the control of the Breath formally.  That control is called Channeling (basically, CJ spellcasting), and it's a skill that uses Breath points.  Those who have no points in the skill can still have a strong life-force, they just don't have the expertise to do anything more with it than augment their mundane efforts (what the "focus" mechanic is supposed to represent).
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« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2009, 03:30:15 PM »

Polycarp


Development Decisions III

Well, that whole Array thing is something for another time.  It was just an idea I got; now we let it stew for a while and come back to it later.  In the meantime, I've posted Part 2 of Synergy, a short little part about the "Integrity Attributes" of Health and Breath.

I've never been satisfied with the idea that Constitution/Stamina/whatever should impact how easily a character gets cut to ribbons.  One's physical constitution certainly impacts one's resistance to disease, but poison is a stretch, and you certainly can't take a sword blow any better because of it.  Stamina, which is what I use here, is even farther removed from health.  The upshot is that in Synergy, health is basically static, unaffected by either character advancement or abilities (though in Synergy, those are the same thing).  You can learn to defend yourself better, but if you get stabbed, you are in as much trouble as the baker's apprentice.  Such is the fragility of life.

Breath, as I mention, is a setting-specific concept.  You can read more about it in the thread/wiki, but in CJ the Breath is both the "life force" of the world and the actual, physical wind that living things breathe.  This leads to some rather interesting situations (for instance, you can't use magic if you're drowning).  Aside from being a "mana pool" of sorts, Breath points function a bit like Action Points, allowing even non-spellcasting characters to get some mileage out of them.

Breath advancing with attributes seems like a curious choice, but it works in the context of CJ.  In the setting, though all living things have the Breath within them, the truly great are believed to be more strongly imbued with it.  Mastery is intimately connected with mysticism '“ the legendary blacksmith is not just legendary because of technical merit, but because the quest for mastery over metal has also yielded mastery over the self, and no true legendary feat can be accomplished without self-mastery.  Anyone who is good at anything is considered to be more strongly imbued with the Breath than a novice, even if they've never studied the control of the Breath formally.  That control is called Channeling (basically, CJ spellcasting), and it's a skill that uses Breath points.  Those who have no points in the skill can still have a strong life-force, they just don't have the expertise to do anything more with it than augment their mundane efforts (what the "focus" mechanic is supposed to represent).


So do you see mastery in one skill allowing a person an easier path to mastery of the breath?
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« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2009, 05:45:52 PM »

Nomadic

So do you see mastery in one skill allowing a person an easier path to mastery of the breath?

One skill, or many skills.  Once nice thing about it is that channelers can't be all-powerful.  A channeler must make a trade-off between power and resources; if he specializes in channeling to the exclusion of everything else, he'll be able to do a lot with Breath but will run out of it very quickly.  A more broadly skilled channeler won't have access to the same high-level forms, but will be able to use more forms and for a much longer period of time (and will have other skills to fall back on if channeling is ineffective).

The whole Breath thing is better covered in fluff terms here.
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2009, 08:36:34 AM »

First off, like everybody else here I like the idea behind this system. I have been interested in the concepts behind game systems and that mythical "ultimate system" for some time. Yours is a very elegant one, and the synergy feature is interesting and, I think, fun.
Are there any limits to how far you can take your synergy though? It might balance itself out over time, but is there an actual limit to how far an ability can go? Also, it's difficult to relate the ability scores to the actual physical capabilities of a character. What is the average of a person? Is a person with 4 in str strong and muscular or just somewhat well-trained?
I'm not sure about your arguments on the whole getting-stabbed thing. While I agree that you shouldn't let it scale with some ability (as you'll risk ending up with some kind of unkillable character), there must be some factors which have an influence on whether you'll die from getting stabbed, be they high pain tolerance, strong bones, or a vestigial kidney.
Will all character modification and advancement be in terms of skills/abilities? Or will you implement "feats" or something akin to that.
But looking forward to where you're taking this smile

I love how you can't use magic in CJ while drowning by the way; it's fun when there are some unforeseen consequences of your own design decisions.
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2009, 03:40:58 PM »

Cataclysmic Crow

First off, like everybody else here I like the idea behind this system. I have been interested in the concepts behind game systems and that mythical "ultimate system" for some time. Yours is a very elegant one, and the synergy feature is interesting and, I think, fun.
Are there any limits to how far you can take your synergy though? It might balance itself out over time, but is there an actual limit to how far an ability can go? Also, it's difficult to relate the ability scores to the actual physical capabilities of a character. What is the average of a person? Is a person with 4 in str strong and muscular or just somewhat well-trained?[/quote]kinds[/i] of strength people have is needlessly simulationist for me; I consider that something that can fall under roleplaying.  A system is needed only to determine the outcome of attempts, not to reflect a character's physique in every detail.

Quote

I'm not sure about your arguments on the whole getting-stabbed thing. While I agree that you shouldn't let it scale with some ability (as you'll risk ending up with some kind of unkillable character), there must be some factors which have an influence on whether you'll die from getting stabbed, be they high pain tolerance, strong bones, or a vestigial kidney.
prevention[/i] - if you're skilled, whether in fighting, sneaking, or talking, hopefully you can avoid getting stabbed in the first place.  Once you are stabbed, it's the first aid/healing skills of your allies you must rely on.

Quote

Will all character modification and advancement be in terms of skills/abilities? Or will you implement "feats" or something akin to that.
I love how you can't use magic in CJ while drowning by the way; it's fun when there are some unforeseen consequences of your own design decisions.[/quote]
It also means that when against a powerful channeler, your best bet might just be to grab his neck - strangling works equally well.

I'm not sure I've fully grasped all the implications of this - for example, does that mean that fish aren't really living because they don't breathe air?  I suppose water-breathing creatures must have some means of taking the Breath even through water; I haven't thought of it much.  It gets especially weird for the Umbril, who don't have lungs - they breathe through their skin.  It's not possible to strangle them, but presumably one could drown them so long as they are fully submerged.  And how much skin is necessary?  If an Umbril can just stick its arm out of the water, can it still breathe?  What about a single tendril (finger)?
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2009, 04:01:46 PM »

Well, then this might be the "ultimate system" for you smile
Don't you think there'll be a lack of advancement options if you can only really upgrade your skill? You could have certain "milestones" appear when your level in certain skills or abilities reaches certain levels.
if you can grab his throat you might as well perforate his lung with a knife i guess ^^ But true, if it comes to stopping him from throwing some nasty spell at your face strangling might be better than, for example, keeping him from gesturing with his hand.

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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2009, 04:47:03 PM »

Cataclysmic Crow

Don't you think there'll be a lack of advancement options if you can only really upgrade your skill? You could have certain "milestones" appear when your level in certain skills or abilities reaches certain levels.
if you can grab his throat you might as well perforate his lung with a knife i guess ^^ But true, if it comes to stopping him from throwing some nasty spell at your face strangling might be better than, for example, keeping him from gesturing with his hand.[/quote]Well, channeling right now requires only breathing - there are no gestures, no words, and no material components.  If the form that you're using has no obvious effect (most don't), there's no way for people to know that you're channeling unless they themselves are skilled channelers (in which case they may sense the Breath being used) or if they're close enough to you to hear that you're breathing rather strangely.  The only outward evidence of a powerful form might just be a deep, slow exhale.  Again, Umbril are weird here, as you can't really tell when they are breathing - Umbril channelers can be super-secret about it (but this skin breathing thing does have a downside - they can't just stop breathing like we can, so they automatically breathe in poison gas and other such nasty airborne things that you or I could just hold our breaths and run through).

This may sound powerful, but magic is pretty low-power in CJ.  There are virtually no flashy or direct-damage forms (and certainly no "save-or-die" kinds of forms).  Most create subtle effects or confer bonuses that, while useful, aren't overwhelming.

On a note unrelated to this discussion, but relevant to this thread, I hope to post the beginnings of a combat system soon.
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« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2009, 05:21:40 PM »

Looking forward to the combat system! Usually one of the more complex parts of system design; of course depending on what way you take it.
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